New York [City of New York] & Philadelphia [City of Paris]

[Ellinis]

Στο βιβλίο "τα Ελληνικά Υπερωκεάνια 1907-1977", ο Α.Ι.Τζαμτζής περιγράφει τις προσπάθειες του Στ.Στεφανίδη να συνδέσει την Ελλάδα με την Αμερική με τα πλοία της "Ελληνοαμερικάνικης Ατμοπλοϊας" ΑΚΡΟΠΟΛΙΣ και ΦΙΛΑΔΕΛΦΕΙΑ.


Τα είχαν χαρακτηρίσει "πλωτά ράκη" και μάλιστα το ΦΙΛΑΔΕΛΦΕΙΑ χρειάστηκε 45 μέρες για να ολοκληρώσει το ένα και μοναδικό ταξίδι του.


Ψάχνοντας στο διαδύκτιο, βρήκα οτι η εταιρεία του Στεφανίδη αναφέρεται στις ξένες πηγές ως "American Black Sea Line", σε ελεύθερη μετάφραση "Γραμμές Αμερικής-Μαύρης Θάλασσας".





Πάμε να δούμε και το δεύτερο υπερωκεάνιο της American Black Sea Line του Στεφανίδη.
Ο Α.Ι.Τζαμτζής αναφέρει κάποιο ΦΙΛΑΔΕΛΦΕΙΑ. Ωστόσο το μόνο πλοίο εκείνης της εποχής με αυτό το όνομα ήταν το πρώην CITY OF PARIS
που επρόκειτο να ταξιδέψει από Νέα Υόρκη προς Νάπολι-Κωνσταντινούπολη για τη NewYork-Naples SS Co. Μάλιστα στο ένα και μοναδικό ταξίδι του είχε προβληματάκια :rolleyes:




in 1922 she was sold to the New York-Naples Steamship Co., her intended service being Gibraltar-Naples-Palermo-Piraeus-Constantinople. Within this company, she only made one voyage. She left New York with Constantinople as destination, but when the ship approached her first port-of-call – Naples – the ship was a floating problem. The company was facing heavy financial difficulties, and the crew had become mutinous. After an attempt to scuttle the ship had been made, the officers were forced to patrol the decks with revolvers drawn. Upon the ship’s arrival in (http://www.maritimequest.com/liners/city_of_paris_page_4.htm)Naples (http://www.maritimequest.com/liners/city_of_paris_page_4.htm), the authorities came on board and arrested the crew. The abandoned ship was left alone, and it eventually drifted ashore. Subsequently, she was sold for scrap. In 1923, she was towed to Genoa where she was broken up.

Πηγή (http://www.greatoceanliners.net/cityofparis.html)

Δεν βλέπω κάποια σχέση ανάμεσα στο PHILADELPHIA και τον Στεφανίδη.
Ωστόσο η American Black Sea Line είχε ένα ακόμη βαπόρι και ήταν το αδελφάκι του CITY OF PARIS, ήταν το NEW YORK για το οποίο γράψαμε εδώ (http://www.nautilia.gr/forum/showpost.php?p=171529&postcount=14).


Το πλοίο είχε ναυπηγηθεί το 1888 και αγοράστηκε από το Στεφανίδη το 1922.


Ως CITY OF NEW YORK παραλίγο να συγκρουστεί με τον Τιτανικό (http://www.maritimequest.com/liners/city_of_new_york_uss_harvard/city_of_new_york_page_2.htm)στον παρθενικό του απόπλου από το Southampton, κάτι που κάποιοι θεώρησαν σαν οιωνό, ότι η «Νέα Υόρκη» προσπάθησε να αποτρέψει την τραγωδία που ακολούθησε.


Το NEW YORK φαίνεται πως έκανε ένα μόνο ταξίδι προς την Κωνσταντινούπολη και αφού κατασχέθηκε, πωλήθηκε για διάλυση στην Ιταλία.


Το μόνο που μπορώ να υποθέσω για την αναφορά του Α.Ι.Τζαμτζή στο ΦΙΛΑΔΕΛΦΕΙΑ είναι να οφείλεται σε σύγχυση ανάμεσα στα δύο αδελφάκια.


Λεπτομέρεια της φωτογραφίας του NEW YORK στην Κωνσταντινούπολη, δημοσιευμένη στο περιοδικό Αργώ.


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[Nicholas Peppas]

Πάμε να δούμε και το δεύτερο υπερωκεάνιο της AmericanBlackSeaLine του Στεφανίδη.
Ο Α.Ι.Τζαμτζής αναφέρει κάποιο ΦΙΛΑΔΕΛΦΕΙΑ.


This clarification is also very helpful... Can you imagine the City of New York ending up in the hands of a Greek shipowner?

As for Tzamtzis and his book, I have some serious concerns and comments about his many and very negative comments in his book... But I will reserve them for an appropriate time...

[Ellinis]

´Hταν ένα πολύ ωραίο καράβι, στα νιάτα του ήταν πραγματικά πρωτοποριακό, αλλά όταν έφτασε στα χέρια του Στεφανίδη ήταν ήδη 34 ετών...

Έψαξα αρκετά μήπως βρω συνδεση μεταξύ του Στεφανίδη και της New York-Naples SS Co. του PHILADELPHIA αλλά δεν βρήκα κάτι ουσιαστικό. Το μόνο κοινό είναι το δρομολόγιο των πλοίων τους Νέα Υόρκη-Νάπολη-Κωνσταντινούπολη.
Επίσης κοινό σημείο οτι τόσο το NEW YORK όσο και το PHILADELPHIA κάνανε ένα μόνο ταξίδι πρωτού κατασχεθούν.

[Nicholas Peppas]

Nick, this is very interesting... did you have the chance to check the ownership of Philadelphia? Just to be sure that Stephanides was not behind this company.


The information I got here at the Genealogical Library from Salt Lake City, UT comes from a book I had not seen before F. E. Emmons, American Passenger Ships: The Ocean Lines and Liners, 1873-1983, The University of Delaware Press, Newark, DE, 1985.

The book verifies your stories. Indeed, Philadelphia was another name of the City of Paris used after her grounding off the coast of Cornwall on May 21, 1899. At that time she was refitted and re-engined at Belfast and became Philadelphia. Her first trip under the new name was Southampton-New York on August 31, 1901. Her name changed to U.S.S. Harrisburg during the May 1918 to September 1919 period when she was used for returning troops after World War I.

The new information here is that she was sold to the New York-Naples Steamship Co, a company owned by Stefanides. As the name hints, this was an ephimeral company, just to bring the ship to Naples... It looks like there was no intention to put her back in the transatlantic trade as she was in very bad shape both mechanically and in her interior.... It is not surprising there was a mutiny and scuttling in the ship.... Anyhow, the end of the great City of Paris of Inman Lines was as you described and with scrapping in Genoa, Italy, after September 1923.

I have a sketch of Philadelphia from Emmons's book that I will scan when I return home.

Please look at some wonderful pictures and postcards of Philadelphia in http://www.bigbertis.com/ssphila.htm



And here are some more references to her bizarre ending.... First, from the New York Times http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=950CEED61339EF3ABC4C51DFBE668389639EDE
And then some more background http://www.greatoceanliners.net/cityofparis.html

[Ellinis]

Nίκο, βλέπω το ψάξιμο στη Γιούτα απέδωσε καρπούς!

Υποθέτω πως όλη η οργάνωση των Στεφανίδη-Μπούρα ήταν "εύθραστη", ίσως ήθελαν να επωφεληθούν απο τα αποτελέσματα της νέας τάξης που έφερε το τέλος του Α' παγκόσμιου και της μετακίνησης πληθησμών.

Το ΦΙΛΑΔΕΛΦΕΙΑ λοιπόν έκανε ένα και μοναδικό ταξίδι προς Gibraltar-Naples-Palermo-Piraeus-Constantinople που έληξε όμως άδοξα στη Νάπολη.
Κάτι περισσότερο εδώ (http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9406EED61239EF3ABC4B53DFBE668389639EDE)για το ταξίδι αυτό που κράτησε 16 ημέρες και θα μετέφερε 1000 επιβάτες + 100 λαθρεπιβάτες :rolleyes: ...

[Nicholas Peppas]

Το ΦΙΛΑΔΕΛΦΕΙΑ λοιπόν έκανε ένα και μοναδικό ταξίδι προς Gibraltar-Naples-Palermo-Piraeus-Constantinople που έληξε όμως άδοξα στη Νάπολη. Κάτι περισσότερο εδώ (http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9406EED61239EF3ABC4B53DFBE668389639EDE)για το ταξίδι αυτό που κράτησε 16 ημέρες και μετέφερε 1000 επιβάτες + 100 λαθρεπιβάτες ...
Well, we are reading the same sites, aren't we?


Here is a picture of teh Philadelphia from the www.norwayheritage.com (http://www.norwayheritage.com) Web site, more specifically http://www.norwayheritage.com/p_ship.asp?sh=cipa2

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How do you upload important pictures for your favorite site when you are in a hotel in Salt Lake City, UT and you have no scanner next to you? You take a picture of the photocopy using your iPhone, then you append it to an e-mail message that you send to yourself and then through your laptop you opload it to nautilia.gr... Don't you love progress?

Here is a sketch of Philadelphia from Emmons' book (see above)

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And here is the book by Morton Allan

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[Ellinis]

Η τεχνολογία έκανε το θαύμα της, αλλά όχι απο μόνη της. Η ανθρώπινη έρευνα είναι αυτή όμως που έφερε αυτές μνήμες στην επιφάνεια.

Έφερε την εικόνα χιλίων φουκαράδων να περιμένουν να φύγουν από το Νότο της Ιταλίας με ένα πλοίο-φάντασμα, έφερε την εικόνα άλλων που περίμεναν να επιβιβαστούν στην Κωνσταντινούπολη, σε ένα πλοίο που δεν έφτασε ποτε. Ρώσοι κατατρεγμένοι απο την άνοδο των "κόκκινων", Αρμένιοι που προσπαθούσαν να γλυτώσουν τα επακόλουθα της γενοκτονίας (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide), Έλληνες που έβλεπαν το τέλος του Ελληνισμού της Μικράς Ασίας να έρχεται... Όλοι μαζί στα πλοία της American Near East & Black Sea Line...

[Nicholas Peppas]

Η τεχνολογία έκανε το θαύμα της, αλλά όχι απο μόνη της. Η ανθρώπινη έρευνα είναι αυτή όμως που έφερε αυτές μνήμες στην επιφάνεια.

Έφερε την εικόνα χιλίων φουκαράδων να περιμένουν να φύγουν από το Νότο της Ιταλίας με ένα πλοίο-φάντασμα, έφερε την εικόνα άλλων που περίμεναν να επιβιβαστούν στην Κωνσταντινούπολη, σε ένα πλοίο που δεν έφτασε ποτε. Ρώσοι κατατρεγμένοι απο την άνοδο των "κόκκινων", Αρμένιοι που προσπαθούσαν να γλυτώσουν τα επακόλουθα της γενοκτονίας (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide), Έλληνες που έβλεπαν το τέλος του Ελληνισμού της Μικράς Ασίας να έρχεται... Όλοι μαζί στα πλοία της American Near East & Black Sea Line...

So well said! Are you a literary person as well? By the way, I was thinking the same as I was in the Genealogical Library yesterday.... I saw (and copied) so many pictures of old ocean liners that I had never seen before...

For those who do not know why theer is a Genealogical Library in Salt Lake City, the Mormons believe that they have to search and identify all their ancestors and report them to the Church because some day the extended family will be reunited. There is an incredible wealth of information in their Genealogical Library, from birth, marriage and death records going back (in some cases) to the 16th century, to pictures, maps, historical tidbits, etc. Regrettably, their collection of Greek artifacts (except for the Ionian islands) is not good because -as they say- the Greek authorities consider any Greek information in the various municipalities as state secret and they do not allow the Mormon missionaries (a two year service is required of all Mormons before they proceed with their lives) to photocopy them or record them. Most information is kept in microfiche form at the Library... It is incredible to see the millions of records from Germany, England, Scandinavia, France, Italy, Spain, even small countries like Latvia, Lithuania, Albania, etc.

Here is a small picture of the Library
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[Nicholas Peppas]

Philadelphia was another name of the City of Paris used after her grounding off the coast of Cornwall on May 21, 1899. At that time she was refitted and re-engined at Belfast and became Philadelphia. Her first trip under the new name was Southampton-New York on August 31, 1901. Her name changed to U.S.S. Harrisburg during the May 1918 to September 1919 period when she was used for returning troops after World War I.

The new information here is that she was sold to the New York-Naples Steamship Co, a company owned by Stefanides. As the name hints, this was an ephimeral company, just to bring the ship to Naples... It looks like there was no intention to put her back in the transatlantic trade as she was in very bad shape both mechanically and in her interior.... It is not surprising there was a mutiny and scuttling in the ship.... Anyhow, the end of the great City of Paris of Inman Lines was as you described and with scrapping in Genoa, Italy, after September 1923.

My friend Ellinis. At last, I have been able to unearth a photograph of Philadelphia in Naples from the site http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-civil/civsh-c/c-paris.htm

First, as we said before, this was the glorious City of Paris of Inman Line that had won the Blue Riband 30 years earlier! See photograph below.

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By 1922, she was Philadelphia, an old ship with problems coming close to mutiny. So, here she is in Naples, Italy in July 1922

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[Nicholas Peppas]

My friend Ellinis. At last, I have been able to unearth a photograph of Philadelphia in Naples from the site http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-civil/civsh-c/c-paris.htm

First, as we said before, this was the glorious City of Paris of Inman Line that had won the Blue Riband 30 years earlier! See photograph below.

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By 1922, she was Philadelphia, an old ship with problems coming close to mutiny. So, here she is in Naples, Italy in July 1922

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[/left]

And a few more pieces of information...

Advertisement on July 11, 1922 announcing a departure of Philadelphia from Piraeus... and then two days later a change of mind due to lack of Piraeus customers

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[Nicholas Peppas]

An ad of New York on June 12, 1922. Is this the ad for the only trip New York intended to make to NYC?
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[τοξοτης]

One of the greatest liners of the nineteenth century, City of New York was a remarkable ship in many ways. She was the first ship (except Great Eastern) ever to exceed 10,000 tons. She was the first twin-screw steamer built for regular express service on the North Atlantic. And she was a Blue Ribband winner, setting an eastbound crossing record after she had been in service for more than nine years. And, on a sadder note, she was one of the last ships of the Inman Line, one of the Leading transatlantic operations of the 1800's.

Built by J.& G. Thomson of Glasgow, City of New York was launched in March 1888. As originally built, she carried three stacks and three masts rigged for sails, as shown on several cards on this page. She made her maiden voyage on 1 August 1888, from Liverpool to New York.
In 1886, Inman was acquired by the International Navigation Co., an American firm that also operated the American and Red Star Lines. For a period of time, the line was known as Inman & International, and it was for I & I that City of New York earned her only Blue Ribband. This came at the expense of her sister, City of Paris (http://www.greatships.net/philadelphia.html), in a 20.11 knot eastbound crossing in August 1892, the last of nine record-setting voyages by Inman-built ships.
In 1892, I & I was awarded a United States Mail contract by Congress. The enabling legislation permitted City of New York and City of Paris to be transferred to American registry even though they were built abroad, in exchange for a commitment to build two new express steamers in the United States. The American flag was raised on the ship in the middle of a snowstorm in New York Bay, on 22 February 1893, with President Benjamin Harrison in attendance. At the same time, the ship was renamed New York and the line's name was changed from I & I back to the American Line. With these changes, the Inman name and its distinctive "City of" ship names disappeared from the North Atlantic.
Three days later, New York took her first American Line sailing, from New York to Southampton. She remained on that route until 1898, when the Spanish American War began. She served as an auxiliary cruiser named Harvard during the War and was refitted in 1901, emerging from this refit with only two funnels. She then returned to the New York-Southampton service, where she remained until World War I. After hostilities broke out in August 1914, her British terminus was changed to Liverpool.
When the United States entered the war, New York was again called into service as an armed merchant cruiser, under the name Plattsburg. After another refitting, which reduced her masts to two, she returned to American Line service, again as New York, in February 1920. Nine months later, in November, she took American's last New York-Southampton sailing, after which she was sold to the Polish Navigation Co. in 1921. She changed ownership several times over the next few years, sailing for the Irish-American, United Transatlantic and American Black Sea Lines before being scrapped in 1923.
New York played a role in two of the most notable maritime accidents of the early twentieth century. In February 1909, she arrived on the scene of the collision between White Star's Republic (II) (http://www.greatships.net/republic2.html) and Lloyd Italiano's Florida, and escorted the damaged Italian liner to New York. On 10 April 1912, New York was tied up at Southampton, and the movement of water caused by Titanic's (http://www.greatships.net/titanic.html) passage through Southampton Water broke the lines holding her to White Star's Oceanic (II) (http://www.greatships.net/oceanic2.html). New York broke free and would likely have collided with Titanic had the tug boat Vulcan not pulled her safely away.
Sources: Flayhart's The American Line; Bonsor's North Atlantic Seaway; Lynch and Marschall's Titanic: An Illustrated History. http://www.greatships.net/newyork.html

http://www.greatships.net/scans/PC-NY12.jpg

http://www.greatships.net/scans/PC-NY10.jpg

[Nicholas Peppas]

One of the greatest liners of the nineteenth century, City of New York was a remarkable ship in many ways. She was the first ship (except Great Eastern) ever to exceed 10,000 tons. She was the first twin-screw steamer built for regular express service on the North Atlantic. And she was a Blue Ribband winner, setting an eastbound crossing record after she had been in service for more than nine years. And, on a sadder note, she was one of the last ships of the Inman Line, one of the Leading transatlantic operations of the 1800's.




Important additions!!! Thanks

[Nicholas Peppas]

.......
Indeed, Philadelphia was another name of the City of Paris used after her grounding off the coast of Cornwall on May 21, 1899. At that time she was refitted and re-engined at Belfast and became Philadelphia. Her first trip under the new name was Southampton-New York on August 31, 1901. Her name changed to U.S.S. Harrisburg during the May 1918 to September 1919 period when she was used for returning troops after World War I.

.........

I have a sketch of Philadelphia .......


Philadelphia

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[Nicholas Peppas]

Eδω βλεπουμε μεγαλη ανακοινωση του Νεα Υορκη απο τις 22 Μαιου 1922.
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[Ellinis]

she returned to American Line service, again as New York, in February 1920. Nine months later, in November, she took American's last New York-Southampton sailing, after which she was sold to the Polish Navigation Co. in 1921. She changed ownership several times over the next few years, sailing for the Irish-American, United Transatlantic and American Black Sea Lines before being scrapped in 1923.


Όταν τα πλοία γεράσουν παιρνάνε και από διάφορες αμφιλεγόμενες πλοιοκτησίες. Έτσι και το ΝΕW YORK πουλήθηκε το 1921 στην Polish Navigation Co. αλλά έκανε μόνο ένα ταξίδι μιας και οι ναυτικοί του βρέθηκαν απλήρωτοι και το καράβι κατασχέθηκε για χρέη. Εκπληστειριάστηκε στη Worden & Co για 70.000$. Στα δυο παρακάτω αρθράκια διαβάζουμε οτι το Φεβρουάριο του 1922 θα έκανε στις 4 Απριλίου το πρώτο του ταξίδι για τη Polish Mercantile Marine η οποία ήταν μια νεα μορφή της προηγούμενης πολωνικής εταιρίας και οτι η αγορά του από Ιρλανδούς δεν προχώρησε.
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Όμως ένα μήνα αργότερα το πλοίο αναφέρεται οτι θα ταξίδευε στις 18 Απριλίου για τη νεοεμφανιζόμενη Irish-American Line με προορισμό το Δουβλίνο. Φαίνεται πως και η δεύτερη πολωνική εταιρία έκλεισε πριν το πλοίο ταξιδέψει για αυτή.
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Όμως το πλοίο παρέμεινε ανενεργό και φέρεται να πέρασε στη United Transatlantic Lines που μάλλον ταυτιζόταν με την Irish-American Line μαις και οι δυο ιδρύθηκαν στις 8 Απριλίου. Μάλιστα η UTL άλλαξε το όνομα της σε United Irish Tranatlantic Lines. Σε αυτό το σημείο εμφανίστηκαν και οι Στεφανίδης & Μπενάς που πήραν το πλοίο για να κάνει τον Ιούνιο το ένα και μοναδικό ταξίδι του για λογαριασμό τους.
Kαι δυο φωτογραφίες του 1914, στη δεύτερη βλέπουμε το εντυπωσιακό στέγαστρο του σαλονιού. Εδώ (http://www.norwayheritage.com/p_ship.asp?sh=ciny3)υπάρχουν φωτογραφίες και από το εσωτερικό του σαλονιού.

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πηγή (https://www.flickr.com/photos/library_of_congress/5852617473/in/photostream/)